RockList.com: Community

Here are your responses ending with those of the 14 experts surveyed for this thesis.

Thank you for contributing.

No, I don't think gym owners have a responsibility to educate, because wether their customers decide to go outdoors it entirely up to the individual. Surprisingly, there are many who probably won't. I DO think it would be responsible of them to at least inform customers that if they were to decide to try climbing outdoors, they have a responsibility not only to themselves, but to the rest of the climbing community to find an experienced guide to help them learn all about the differences and risks. Chances are the small amount of effort it takes just to do that may help to enhance the sport. Remember, continued access to certain crags depends on everyone.
Jena <jenasteele@yahoo.com>
Squamish, BC Canada - Tuesday, July 25, 2000 at 12:10:47 (MST)

I don't think they are responsible, as in liable, but I think too many climbers that start in gyms, go out and buy 500.00 worth of gear and go to the local crag with a "How to Climb in 10 minutes" book. They need to be encouraged to hook up with experienced climbers to obtain a good foundation of route finding skills,gear placements,equipment use, etc.
Rusty Deal <Rustifar@aol.com>
Knoxville, TN - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 05:09:35 (MST)

All the responses I've read so far has covered just about everything. However, I only use the gym to keep my climbing strength. Here in the Northwest, Washington state, we don't get alot of nice sunny days. Since gyms have the routes marked you can figure out the sequence to climb the route quite easily.Whereas on real rock, you've got to really figure out the sequence for yourself.The bouldering rooms in gyms are good when the area you live in doesn't have alot of real boulders to climb on. But all in all in order to do real climbing you have to get out and climb on real rock.
John R. Anderson <jranderson30@hotmail.com>
Maple Valley, Washington U.S.A. - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 03:52:26 (MST)

#1. In a gym, the routes are marked out for you with colors, it doesn't take much to find them. 2. The holds can always be seen by the person climbing the wall. On real rock, that isn't always the case. The gym doesn't allow for holds that may not be holds at all but rotten rock ready to fall off in your hand. 3. Most of the gyms I've visited have mats and rubber cushioning under the person on the top rope, if the belayer fails, the climber won't be seriously hurt, this fails to teach belay safety. 4. All but one of the gyms I've visited don't teach anymore than one knot and one belay method/device. The one gym I visited that did was owned and operated by a professional climber. I was even kicked out of a gym for using a bowlen w/yosemity tie off, because there instuctors had never heard of it. 5. How many gyms out there can teach crack climbing techniques? Not many at all. 6. Most of the gyms I have visited create 'super egos' that when they do go on natural rock for the first time, jepordise the safety of all involved! The list can go on and on. I believe gyms are a great place to work out in bad weather and non-climbers to get a full body workout. They are great for climbers to keep fit in the winter if they are not ice climbers. They also help get you pumped up and psyched for the next climb. I don't think they are a good place to teach natural rock climbing techniques, especially trad. climbing. If you climb in a gym, seek qualified instruction on the real thing. Don't assume that because the gym says you can climb to thier standards that you are a 5.14 climber in the real world. If you are already a climber, be patient with the gym jocks, it isn't necesarally thier fault that they don't know how to climb the real thing....
Jerry Johnson <jerry_2412@hotmail.com>
Salem, Missouri - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 13:45:29 (MST)

going from the gym to real rock poses some nice problems; 1)natural rock is not always solid, it can boink you on de head! 2)the holds you're going for are not always obvious.3)variables such as weather, altitude, length of climb, endurance come into play, making the program more of a calculus problem than a straighforward technical exercise. Just speaking for myself, gym climbing is OK for the middle of winter but if I can get on real rock, I find it much more engaging, though mainly in an aesthetic sense.
Bob Branscomb <rbransc@yahoo.com>
Lander, WY - Saturday, July 01, 2000 at 08:08:46 (MST)

NO! NEVER! All of us human beings have to be responsible for our own actions. It would be a nice "service" for gym owners to provide good instruction. The real question then would be, "how does one make that translation from gym to rock!?" To me the answer is simple, to be a better rock climber one should go rock climbing. To be a better gym climber, climb in the gym. It really is that simple! Work your weakness and you will become stronger faster. For me it works to balance time in the gym, for power training, and time on the rock for technique and endurance (I hate laps in the gym). To qualify this, I am 44-years old, have been climbing for 22-years, have a 5.13+ red-point level. I am also a gym owner, "Adventure Sports Rock Gym" in Logan, UT. I also work a full-time job as a Land Surveyor. Last year I managed a red-point of "Tweek" (5.13d) and a new route "Freakout" (5.13d/5.14a), and have red-pointed 6-routes at the 5.13d level total. The gym really does help. I think that most young climbers actually enjoy the gym more then "real" rock and that's way cool (necessary for survival of my business)! It's safe, fun, varied by changing holds, climate controlled, sociable, etc. The translation is difficult only if you refuse to leave the indoor environment frequent enough to get the time in on the "real rock"!?! It's all fun! And, it's all cool. So, don't worry it if you suck on rock (or like me suck big time pulling plastic). Enjoy the moment. Focus on the fun and success will be a natural occurrance.
Charlie Odette <rockycharlie@hotmail.com>
Logan, Utah - Friday, June 30, 2000 at 15:11:38 (MST)

Absolutely. Gym owners have a responsibility, yet not an accountabilty. People need to know that there is Gym climbing; a great forum to meet the "elite" that venture outdoors and can educate them, and then there is outdoor climbing: two totally separate activities. Much like our response when CNN reports a "rock-climber" accident on Mt. Hood. They have nil to do with one another, but to the average citizen are indistinguishable.
Jason M. Mullins <jason@rocksandropes.com>
Tucson, Az - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 15:08:47 (MST)

I normally climb indoors, in gyms. I've been outdoor climbing only once. Before going outdoor climbing, I was made aware by some climbing friends who had been outdoors, that it is a whole different story in terms of safety for you and your partner. When I went outdoors for the first time I found that that was absolutely true, and that there was much I needed to learn before I would be able to do it safely. I wonder though, are gym climbers actually less prepared, on their first outdoor trip, then outdoor climbers were on their own first outdoor trip? I think not. Everyone has a lot to learn whenthey move to outdoor climbing.
Mike <Michael521@yahoo.com>
Smithtown, NY - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 19:29:11 (MST)

My opinion to Question 4 is that gym climbers have the same problems as anyone trying to learn to climb in the outdoors. The advantages are the developed muscles and skills that are acquired in the gym. Also a working knowledge of some of the gear required. Disadvantages are probably overconfidence in your abilities and viewing the climb as the only skill required. Climbing outdoors can involve many skills, not just pulling on stone. Understanding weather, reading rock condition, being aware of rock fall, other climbers, and route finding are some of the skills you will need to learn to successfully climb outdoors. If we are also talking about switching from sport to traditional gear, one needs to learn a lot. And remember what goes up must come down. I know more people who have been injured coming down then going up. Some who have learned to climb indoors might think that since they can climb hard indoors they can climb hard outdoors, probably true if it is on bolts or top rope but when it comes to natural protection, one must master that skill before pushing ones limit.
Bill Kiah <kaya5446@aol.com>
Ft.Collins, CO - Saturday, June 24, 2000 at 16:34:49 (MST)

The biggest problem I just recently noticed while climbing at Lemmon, is that "gym rats" (as we affectionately call them) obtain a false sense of security from climbing indoors. The gym (for obvious liability reasons) provides securely anchored top ropes, fixed gri gri's and floor anchors, and bolted-in hand holds...with many offering padded floors. Gyms are great for conditioning, but benign compared to being out on the crags! The person I climbed with at Lemmon had limited outdoor experience (Jack's). It wasn't until we finished the route and came time to switch out the rope from draws through the 2 bolt chain anchors, that I realized my partner had no clue what to do! She didn't even have a personal anchor on her harness, nor did she know how to rappel! (she'd always been lowed in the gym) Well, with step by step direction, I managed to get her down off the rock...but who would have known? We have since gone back to basics. ANYTHING can happen out on the rock (especially in back country). All climbers need to be prepared for emergency situatons...situation which just don't happen in the gym!
JAK <arfjak@extremezone.com>
Scottsdale, AZ - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 17:07:22 (MST)

Pure Gym climbers sometimes don't know how to set up a proper anchor or toprope.
Christian Strunz <christian.strunz@web.de>
Frankfurt , Germany Germany - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 06:28:12 (MST)

i'm an outdoor climber (only climbed inside once) but then the local crag was only 10 mins away and gas was cheap (or i would my bike out there) but now i moved to michigan from kansas and the gym is 10 mins and the closes real rock is and hour and a half away and gas is over $2 and hell i don't even have a car. so the gym is the place to go. but i love the feel of rock. so i'm in the middle. I think that intsead of bitching about how "the gym climbers have no outdoor skills" we (experenced outdoor climber) should give the outdoor skills to them. instead of laughing at them. after all someone taught us all. someone did for me(untill we both had to move) and it was nothing but thanks and partnership. ken K. if you read this. thanks so much. i'll forever be indebt to you.
adventure_dude <adventuredud_85@yahoo.com>
clarkston, MI - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 18:38:22 (MST)

All of the UK walls I've been to have some sort of 'outdoor club' that they actively push - they seem to realise that it's an essential part of running a wall to try and push people out onto some real rock. Also, they almost always have some sort of shop selling gear as well, which can't be used indoors! This suggests that gyms that don't do the above probably lose any experienced climbers and then dissapear. So my answer to the question is that it's not just a responsibility, but a *requirement* for survival for any wall/gym
Mike Davis <mdavis@kieser.net>
London, UK UK - Friday, June 16, 2000 at 04:45:30 (MST)

I see kids belaying and not paying attention to the person climbing in the gym. I shudder at the thought of them taking this careless attitude outside. Just plain scary.
Idris Pike <idrispike@email.com>
Cimla, Wales Wales - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 09:08:38 (MST)

the movements are the only thing comparable between in door and outdoor climbing. last year alone I met multiple different groups of gym climbers where none of them had ever lead climbed/belayed outdoors and so many of them decked after the third bolt due to getting in over there heads because they felt they could toprope that level in the gym. why should the many responsible climbers lose there privileges due to the ignorant.
melinda zbinden <zboody@hotmail.com>
toledo, ohio - Wednesday, June 14, 2000 at 11:20:49 (MST)

Exposure!!! Hell, anyone can climb in short and a tank top in January in a gym. Try Elephant Buttress out side Boulder in March. Most of the routes don't get sun untill the late afternoon. Numb fingers from the cold rock and a gusty wind is something gym climbers don't ever consider.
Adam Getzel <GDTRFB511@HOTMAIL.COM>
East Brunswick, N.J. - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 19:58:51 (MST)

I am an avid gym climber because of the lack of time between college and work to visit the local crags. I began climbing outdoors and I truely believe a new climber should be taught climbing outdoors first by an expierence climber. However after learning the fundementals and now being forced indoors because of time managment I have been able to expand my technique. I can remember just two years ago struggling and falling on 5.10's and easier 5.11's but after training my strength and techinque bouldering indoors I find myself pushing hard 5.12 moves. The only problem I find with indoor climbing is too much bouldering can hinder one's endurance. So be sure to train both strength and endurence and it can help at the local crags. (But be sure to learn the basics first!!!!
Brian <bbruha@home.com>
Phoenix, AZ United States - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 13:37:53 (MST)

I agree with David Lengyel, the gym climbers that I have met seem to have no fear when climbing in the gym. It is especially seen in their counterparts who are belaying them. They are easily distracted. This might be due to the minimized risk and responsibility in a gym. As far as the gym owner thing goes, it is their call, but nobody wants anyone to go outside and get hurt.
Matt Sullivan <marmot@jhu.edu>
Baltimore, MD - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 12:20:35 (MST)

I believe the main problem gym climbers have when they decide to move to outdoor crags is finding holds and picking routes. Routes are no longer marked with tape and are not as obvious (save a few heavily chalked areas). Picking a route to the top is a very important part of rock climbing and if that skill is not honed then your in for some long days of disappointment. Plus gym climbers don't get to utilize all the different number of grips and techniques needed to climb rock. For instance, a friend of mine, whom I met on rainy day in a gym a few years back had an extreme amount of trouble on a 5.9 route (he climbs 5.11s in the gym) because he didn't know that he could or even how to properly lieback a flake. He fell 10 or 11 times before he understood what I was explaining.
Michael Palm <leesea4@hotmail.com>
Charleroi, PA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 19:53:58 (MST)

I have noticed that avid gym climbers and competitors tend to grab holds the same way. They look at the climb and think, "ah...a no.2 Metolius micro. I'll ring grip the top side." They have used holds enough that there appears to be one most efficient way to grip them. Unfortunately this limits perspective on natural rock. Routes are not so clearly defined. Sequences are more random. And holds need much more thought and innovation. I enjoy the gym myself. Being a staunch traditionalist, I use the gym to climb extreme terrain normally not accessable with clean gear.
Tim Page <timber_p@yahoo.com>
Spencer, NY - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 19:04:32 (MST)

I think the gym is a great place to get and stay strong, but I don't call what I do there, climbing. To me, it doesn't feel at all the same. I don't think this question is well posed.
Joel <joel@optics.arizona.edu>
Tucson, AZ - Tuesday, June 06, 2000 at 14:40:11 (MST)

Gym owners do not have a responsibility to educate people how to climb outside. People know that climbing in a dangerous sport, the gym owners do not need to act as guardians when gym climbers move outside. They should, however, have the information needed to climb outside successfully easily available. When my friend and I wanted to learn how to climb, we got a buch of books together, bought some gear, and started leading 5.8 and 5.9 sport routes in the WA cascades. We didn't come across any problems what so ever and it is due to the amount of home work we did before ever reaching the crags. Gym owners do have an obligation to educate climbers about our environment and the detrimental affect climbing can have on nature. Many climbers are getting annoyed, myself included, as the sport increases on popularity because of crowding and those who climb just to try out their new Lexus SUV. While this is understandable, we all have to look at the positives instead of the negatives of this sudden interest in climbing. If you are going to place people into groups, climbers are definately contenders for the best people on this earth. It is for this reason that every climber has a responsibility to educate hese neophites on environmental respect and safety. It's not news that our world is quickly going to hell right before our eyes. Hopefully with more people getting involved in the outdoors, more care will be given to preservation. So, I urge every climber to great the newbians with open arms and help educate the greater population. As far as question 4, gym climbers usually start climbing outdoors on top rope or leading easy bolted routes. For this reason, the hardest part in the switch to the outdoors is learning to see and use the natural features and how to set up anchors. New climbers aren't going out and trying to lead 5.10 trad climbs. For this reason, it would be helpful for gym owners to have this information available. Climb Safe.
Adam <atticajemima@yahoo.com>
Seattle, WA - Tuesday, June 06, 2000 at 13:05:17 (MST)

In responce to question 4, The gym climber does not!!! understand how to treat grips or holds that are found on outdoor/natural rock. I recently had a fall due to a large chunk of rock falling as I placed my weight on it, and I would class myself as an experienced, well trained climber.
Sam <srt160883@hotmail.com>
., . Wales - Tuesday, June 06, 2000 at 02:45:51 (MST)

Being a gym owner I have been folllowing these questions with a lot of interest. One repondent seems to think that there is a lot of money to be made in the climbing business. Think again, it's a ton of work and if you are not doing it because you love the sport,you would be smart to try something else. Also, people new to climbing, trekking, camping whatever, are by no means naturally unsafe or walking enviromental hazards. The average person we see at the gym is very wary and interested in doing things safely. They also tend to be very enviromentally aware. Those kinds of things (good manners, picking up after yourself etc.) are learned at home or school. As far as sport climbing ability and how it transfers, I personally have seen it to translate at an amazingly high percentage. Trad - sure it is a whole different ballgame and anyone with any common sense will figure that out quickly. We refer to our gym as an "Indoor Climbing Facility", we give people tons of info. on safety and try to pass on our passion for climbing to our customers. Just like driving a car - there are always going to be careless people out there. However, this is the exception and not the rule. As for crowding, the population of the world is going to doulble in the next 100 yrs. - everything is crowded. The guys and girls at my gym just spent over a hundred hours setting up routes for our J.C.C.A. comp. It was a pleasure to watch those young people work their butts off so the kids in the comp. could have a good time and participate in a great activity like climbing. By the way, some of those kids climb 5.13 with mom or dad belaying. Having not started climbing until the age of 40 and finding it a difficult sport to do in the corn fields of Indiana - it is very nice to have a place to go and train. Just like anything else, you should judge each person on their own merits and not their race, creed, color, or experience or lack there of. I seen plenty of "experienced" climbers doing dangerous things. For the most part, 90% of our customers will never climb outside - it's not for everyone. Help out the ones that pursue it. I will let you know when I decide to sell my gym, you can buy it and get rich.
Mike Thurston <Towerman1@hotmail.com>
Bloomington, IN Monroe - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 16:13:15 (MST)

What kind of problems do I think gym climbers have when learning to climb natural rock? People who learn to climb on a plastic indoor wall before they learn to climb rocks are faced with one basic problem. The two mediums are similar enough that they are inclined to think they know something about rock climbing, when in fact they know nothing at all. You might as well ask what problems car drivers have learning to fly airplanes. I would go so far as to say that (depending on their attitude) they are actually handicapped. If they know they want to learn how to climb rocks they should learn to do that first, then learn about plastic climbing.
Tony Calderone <tony.calderone@ac.com>
Pleasant Hill, CA - Sunday, June 04, 2000 at 22:04:08 (MST)

I don't think gym owners have a responsibility to educate their customers about the risks of transferring gym skills to natural rock. I DO think they have a responsibility to constantly define the difference. Blaming a new rock climber for assuming they have learned the required skills in the gym only goes so far. Gyms with names that have "rock" in them and try to capitalize on the adventurous aspects of rock climbing are setting their clients up for failure and jeopardizing the natural environment. Indoor rock climbing does not exist. I think it would be better to call it "plastic climbing". Not just because that is really what you are climbing, but because it differentiates it from rock climbing. Differentiation should be happening on ever level possible, to really send the message to beginners that the gym is not rock climbing.
Tony Calderone <tony.calderone@ac.com>
Pleasant Hill, CA - Sunday, June 04, 2000 at 21:38:38 (MST)

Gyms are great for first timers and for training but they are a giant saftey net. Many new climbers don't realize the added dangers of being outside. Main good points of gyms are that they allow one to practice specific moves where the holds are obvious, and they allow one to climb on days they can't avoid work.
J. Brady <jeramyb@earthlink.net>
Barstow, Ca - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 21:12:52 (MST)

I'm just back from Kala Pattar -no climbing, just hard trekking. My natural progression is a trekking peak and I have my sights on Island Peak. Knowing nothing about climbing, I will enroll in a gym climbing-class. In a couple of years I should be to attempt the 150m tricky part of Imja Tse.
Pedro Guarda <pguarda@hotmail.com>
New Rochelle, NY - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 19:41:37 (MST)

I think that outdoor and indoor climbing are completely different, both mentally and physcially. In my opinion, gyms make for great practice and strength training when the weather's crappy or you're short on time. But I much prefer outside climbing. As for someone who's started indoors and want to move to outdoors, they must expect that it will not be the same. Everything that everyone has already mentioned--many more dangers, different ways of climbing.
Amy Rosenberg <arosen@fcmail.com>
Baltimore, MD - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 10:02:15 (MST)

Not unless the customer asks about it. Rock climbing is a dangerous sport requiring each practitioner to take a lot of responsibility. Determining the risks in a safe and responsible manner is the responsibility of the climber
Mike H. <mehharr@aol.com>
Roanoke, VA - Wednesday, May 31, 2000 at 18:54:11 (MST)

Nobody has responsibility for your safety except you! i do believe that gyms need to stress more environmental ethics, even if it's just a few land freindly posters here and there. Gyms account for much of the population explosion in climbing and should assume thier responsibility to the natural environments where the masses of clients end up on the weekends. Cherish you playground!
John McCoy <mjmccoy@earthlink.net>
Sausalito, CA - Tuesday, May 30, 2000 at 08:12:12 (MST)

I do not believe that indoor gyms are the evil that a lot of people make them out to be. They offer things that are not all bad. 1st they give a controlled environment for new people to learn in. I think back to my days of learning to climb when indoor gyms didn't exist. I am still amazed I did not kill myself. From an access point of view gyms direct people to learn how to do things correctly so they are less apt to get hurt when outside and thus less apt to end up being the cause of an area being closed. And finally they are a great place for those of us that live in the Northern Hemisphere to get a good pump and stay in shape when the weather turns to absolute crap outside
Jasen Boyd <jboyd@proximity.com>
Burlington, Vermont - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 13:52:21 (MST)

I firmly believe that in most cases, if the individual begins their "Outside" learning efforts with an open mind and maintains the fundamentals that they acquired in the controlled environment of the gym, then they will do fine. It is imperative that they seek instruction from an experienced and qualified instructor. It will then be the responsibility of both Instructor and Student to be fully conscience of the fact that the "Outside" environment is no longer the controlled one that the Student is accustomed to. Once again, it is the Students responsibility to take on the burden of responsibility for undertaking their climbing "Outside" and within the natural environment where anything can occur and they must be prepared for the challenges.
Rick Poedtke <rockrat@cnetech.com>
Hanford, Calif - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 08:44:38 (MST)

In answer to Q4 the fact that most indoor climbers that I have come across don't realise that holds come away in your hands, that there is oh my god!!! dirt and crud on holds( I have even seen climbers with a dust brush , maybe for you not for me, that rocks cut and the hiking to go and climb in the first place. I say "go back to your little aircoditioned gyms and leave the outdoors to the ones who learnt there". In my opinion indoor gym onwers have alot to answer for . I tell you one thing I enjoyed climbing alot more before it became "cool", now there are just to many wankers on the faces.
Adrian Dempsey <adriancdempsey@hotmail.au>
Brisbane, Queensland - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 22:23:44 (MST)

I do not specifically believe that the owner, other than a line in the waiver, has the specific responsibility of warning the gym user of the dangers of transferring their indoor skills to the outdoors, just like the verbage found in catalogs regarding purchase and use of climbing or other sport-specific gear. However, as an instructor at a gym, I do make a point of explaining that although many of the skills learned inside may be applicable outside, indoor instruction is in no replacement for guided outdoor instruction, or the method that most of us learned by - climbing with a (hopefully) more experienced partner in the outdoors- although the old alpine guide concept of an 'apprenticeship' has faded into the dark past. As always, outdoor 'experience' is the key word. Or, they can just learn as I and many others did - self-teaching and trial and error, occasionally at great risk and at the will of the Fates. Nah, that would imply self-determination and responsibility.
Vance A. <glacier@nwlink.com>
Seattle, WA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 15:58:18 (MST)

well, it depends. if you are talking leading, I don't believe that the gym should be responsible, but they should inform people that leading a gym climb and leading outside are totally different, especially if the outdoor climb is to be trad. I mean we have all seen a 5.10 gym climber fall off 5.7 outdoor climbs.
steve <climber1@earthlink.net>
Alhambra, California - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 20:49:08 (MST)

I think gym instructors have a ethical obligation to inform their indoor students that nothing they teach indoors has anything to do with the outdoor climbing world. A good instructor should inform his/her students that they should take a class in outdoor climbing and recommend the student get in contact with a qualified outdoor climbing school, if the student is focused on climbing outdoors.
Eric Hull <tcw@telerama.com>
Pittsburgh, Pa - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 13:50:44 (MST)

i think that i'm getting sick of people looking for other people to figure out things for them. if you're the type of person that needs to have other people be responsible for your safety then you shouldn't be climbin. next you'll be wanting them to wipe your ass after you take a sh*t.
beavis <superg@post.com>
vancouver, bc canada - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 17:47:35 (MST)

No, gym owners owe nothing to customers once they are out the door. Sure the gym is a good intro to climbing, and a good training ground for experianced climbers, but for no reason on gods green earth should someone think that they are a competent climber after a couple of lessons and a few hours pulling on plastic. If they want to climb real rock it is their own responsibility to learn proper techniques and separate the good from the bad advice along with the rest of us. Any one need a climbing partner for northern Colorado/Southern Wyoming. Lumpy ridge, Veadawoo areas
Michael Bentley <powderdaze@ski.com>
Laramie, WY - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 17:49:25 (MST)

No--Gym owners have no more resposibility to teach their customers about the hazards of outdoor climbing than Ford Motor Company has to educate it's customers about the difference between sitting in a car in the showroom and actually driving the car during Los Angeles rush hour on the freeway... Let the little gym-rat 'f*cks' get into some serious "yuck-o", fall and die on their own...it'll save us old b*stards the pain of watching their smug faces as they leap up sh*t we couldn't pull until Boreal Fires came out (I was gonna use EB's as an example, but I figured that was *too*antique; those of you who have any amount of experience at all will know what I mean, though). Then, instead of having to see their smug faces on the cover of Climbing, we only have to scrape them into body bags and be done with their snotty existence, right? OK..so I am being facetious...but climbing has always been about independence...but even more, it's been about learning from the "Old Guard"...and pushing their right stodgy asses a bit...but none the less, learning from them. An apprenticeship, as it were...but that is too easily short-circuited by the gym-created delusions of competency these days...where strength and (false) confidence outpace skill and mountain smarts... But what joy to think that things we wouldn't even have top-roped yessterday are falling, on lead, to the gym rats of today... If you love the sport of climbing more than you value your own ego, you will realize that this is a sport of growth...growth in what is possible for the individual as well as what is possible in the Mountain Arena...therefore your treasured first ascent of a 5.12c shouldn't be placed behind armed guards..recognize that the sport has grown...and people who are very likely 10 years younger than yourself when you begin climbing can on-sight your best first ascent and consider it a "warm-up". I started with a clothes line, three Bonatti Steel carabiners and a piton...my shoes were Converse All Stars, and I soaked the soles in white gas to make them sticky...this was only a few decades ago...not so awfully long (in terms of how old the rocks are)...but I would trade every minute of pleasure I've had in the mountains to bring back to life the kids whose broken bodies it is my job to retrieve. So why do you ask questions which divide the climbing community instead of fostering programs which bring exerienced people together with newcomers to show them (if you will pardon the pun) "the ropes". Outdoor climbing is most definitely several of orders of magnitude more commiting than indoor climbing...and more dangerous. Anyone who ignores or denies this is either stupid, a Republican or involved in a huge ego trip (frequently all three) or is an old fart looking to get laid by that 20-year old blonde in his afternoon "Psych 101" class. Anyone who disagrees that gyms and real rock are different are either delusional, or worse. And I wear a helmet these days because I'm afraid their bodies will drop on me head! So...rather than put the burden on Gym owners...why not replace the burden where it has been traditionally...on the person who wants to learn to climb? Or is that just too sensible? Or just too inconvenient to the "instant gratification" crowd that have polluted the gym that I own? Learn before you burn, you tiny, ant-like gym persons... And stay away from ice climbs...the fear and difficulty are definitely more than you can deal with... -Donnie
Dr> Donald B. MacGowan <dr_sensible@ihateclowns.com>
Na'alehu, Hawaii - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 17:13:07 (MST)

Trying to take gym skills outside is very dangerous! Gym owners should discourage their customers from EVER trying to climb outside. Stay in the gym!
Mesomorph <dduck@disney.com>
Los Angeles, CA - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 15:04:15 (MST)

If the gym instructor is teaching thefirst time climber, yes they do have a responsibility to tell the difference. To assume the climber will not go outside and climb with the limited information given is ignorance on the part of the gym and instructors. A firm understanding of the difference must be clarified for the safety of the climber and the liability of the gym and instructors. If this is ignored it will come back and be a serious problem in the future.
Doug Robertson <droberts@cv.telegroup.com>
., . - Tuesday, May 09, 2000 at 09:19:22 (MST)

the gym owners are responsable for creating a safe environment INDOORS not outdoors. For this reason, they are not there to tell you what to do and what not to do (outdoors). It all comes down to the risks each individual wants to take. "The only risks taken are the risks we do not take". I have been climbing for almost four years and have only gotten as good as climbing 5.9 traditional, however, I have tought myself to aid climb and personally I think aid is more dangerous(out of two months of aid I have completed about eight pitches of aid solo). These are the risks I take, not anyone else, everyone should be able to determine what their limits are, their decisions to do what they are going to do. YOU ARE RESPONSABLE FOR YOUR OWN DECISIONS
William <mntnman@cts.com>
city of rocks, state of mind - Friday, May 05, 2000 at 01:28:21 (MST)

I think if you like the sport and you know that in the future you are going to try the real thing, you must know about the risks. The gym only gives you a sample of it, they don't have to be responsible, but at least they need to let everybody know about the risk and responsibility of the real outdoor climbing.
ED <dukausa@bellsouth.net>
Hallandale, FL - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 20:36:18 (MST)

No, you're taking your own risk moving on to real rock, the gyms are just there for fun and recreation.
AdAM <awintis@aol.com>
Manchester, NH - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 05:44:29 (MST)

I don't think that it's the gym owners job to educate the indoor climber, on his/her transfer to natual rock. If you climb outdoors, you must take you're time and educate you're self on the risks that must be taken. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the oven!!!
Sam Rees-Thomas <srt160883@hotmail.com>
Maesteg, Mid Glamorgan Wales - Wednesday, May 03, 2000 at 03:08:36 (MST)

ABSOLUTELY
ROB <ROBDCLIMBS@AOL.COM>
MOBILE, AL - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 17:42:31 (MST)

OK, it's pretty much a no brainer: gyms are not responsable for educating customers to climb on real rock. However, nor do I think it is anyone elses responsability to inform someone who is 'making a mistake'. The first time I ever climbed outdoors I was leading a well bolted 5.8 and next to me a guy was soloing a similar route to put up a toprope for a beginner. The point I want to make is that in this sport everyone has their own comfort level, whether it's soloing a route or attaching yourself to only one anchor via a quickdraw before untying to clean or rappel. Personally I watch what other people are doing so I can get out of the way if they are doing something I don't feel comfortable with - including the guy soloing a 5.8 even though for him it was probably safer than driving to the crag. IN THIS SPORT YOU ARE RESPONSABLE FOR YOURSELF, if you want to be safe THINK VERY CAREFULLY ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING, EVEN IF YOU ARE WITH AN EXPERIENCED CLIMBER - climing is not rocket science, it only takes a bit of thought to be as safe as you want to be. I have seen many beginners being given instuctions by 'experienced climbers' at crags and often I would consider what they are doing as unsafe, or not the safest thing to do. For instance I climb with a very experienced sport climber who attaches himself to both anchors using quickdraws before untying to clean a route. Personally I feel uncomfortable with this and use locking carabiners - it's simply a question of how you see the risks and what you as an individual deem is safe enough for you. I still see a lot more stupidity on the freeway than at the local crag.
Edward Jenner <ejenner@mines.edu>
Golden, CO - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 14:03:12 (MST)

It is the responsibility of the owner of any business that invites the public in to provide a safe venue for its customers. Any education a climbing gym provides should be sound, with climber safety being paramount. Most gyms though require every potential climber to sign a liabilty waiver, most waivers begin with a statement that says "acknowledgement of risk" The point here is not that it releases the need for education of these risks, but that it puts the responsibility to the climber to realize and educate himself of the risks involved with climbing. It seems reasonable to note that a small percentage of people that climb in gyms actually make it to stone. Those who do, don't go from that initial belay and figure eight knot lesson one-day to standing in line at the latest testpiece at the nearest crag waiting his turn to prove his competancey (or lack of competance) the next. Rather he's over a certain time period listened to the local gym rat spray, he's seen climbing comps on TV, rented the latest climbing video of climbing "professionals" doing things like speed free soloing and taking huge lead falls. He's pyched to climb, hopefully he makes the right decisions about his climbing ability and learns properly, but it is definately his responsibilty, not anybody elses.
Mike Covington <mpcov@aol.com>
Tempe, az - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 22:12:43 (MST)

yes,but i take afirm risks are transfering for rock
Erasmo <erasmoballot@zipmail.com.br>
Aparecida, Sao Paulo Brasil - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 12:15:17 (MST)

No, gym owners do not have a responsibility to educate their customers. I have worked in a climbing gym for two years now, and other than teaching them to put on a harness, tie a figure 8, and belay, the gym has no responsibility. Any owner who tries to teach something like anchor building, placing gear, or anything beyond what I mentioned above is putting themself in serious legal jeopardy.
Cam Snow <casnow@prodigy.net>
Raleigh, NC - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 09:17:44 (MST)

Anyone who climbs, or operates a bussiness that revolve around climbers should inform their custumer or clients of potiential hazzards. This is not limited to people in the industry but to those of us who climb and see unsafe acts.
Eman <four.season.outfitters@usa.net>
Clarksville, tn - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 17:26:02 (MST)

If gym owners had a responsibility, that would mean that when a youngster goes out and kills himself on real rock the owner could get into some serious trouble. It should be understood upon entering a gym or signing up for a membership that the gym was not built to teach one the specific rope skills etc. that one would need to stay alive on real rock. I learned by doing, and from books. i was taken out to the crags a few times and then it was up to me when all my partners left for college. I'm not saying that's the way to go for everyone, but i survived and thrived, and i've only climbed in a gym like 3 times.
matthew schutz <mattschutz@aol.com>
fresno, cali - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 16:42:51 (MST)

They don't have any responsiblity to educate anyone, except to the point that they can climb safely in a controlled situation. This is the problem; typically the motivations behind a gym owner are monetary in nature and having nothing to do with sharing a wonderful sport with new people. Upon the completion of basic intruction that most gyms have, there should be a warning that aesthetically gyms and the wild are much different, in a physical as well as technical nature. Then if they wish to dip into said climbers pocket yet again they can offer outdoor instruction or at the very least, point them to a suitable school for additional training in outdoor technique, anchor system etc.
Jason FitzGerald <Jfitz@thedoghousemail.com>
Stockton Springs, ME - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 12:54:42 (MST)

WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO CLIMBING?.......... THIS WAS NEVER A THOUGHT BACK THEN.... MAYBE THAT'S WHY I'D RATHER SOLO A5+ WITH MY WAKMAN AND A COUPLE BOTTLES OF "VINO ROJO"...
THE WALLRAT CHIEF <rockrat@cnetech.com>
SOMEWHERE..., THERE EARTH - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 12:04:10 (MST)

As climbers we must be responsible for ourselves. No one, can convey the knowledge needed to manage the risks of crag climbing by lecture and demonstration in a gym. Owners of gyms should provide a safe and positive enviornment to learn the basics of climbing. Often people learn an incomplete and short circuited set of skills through indoor training. The f irst lesson at the crag starts at the car dividing equipment , shouldering packs, the hike in. Once at the crag the novice will most likely witness the selection and placement of gear the use and equalization of slings and hopefully how to build a bomber top rope anchor. Only then would the novice at the gym start his training.As the focus turns to knots rope handling and belay technique both should get roughly the same training. My first lessons were at the crag. Our instructor burned us off on the hike in told us about the objective hazards around us and carefully built three top rope anchors. I learned more about climbing in those first hours than I ever have in the gym. My eyes were opened to the seriousness of this sport It remains my first and best impression of how to play this game.
Jeff Howard <jeffandcher@yahoo.com>
Hales Corners, WI - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 20:52:59 (MST)

No they don't. However, a disclaimer should be posted in every gym, and some mention of the differences and dangers should be provided during the initial orientation. The responsibility lies with us, the climbers, to embrace our new friends and mentor them into the craft of climbing, whether it be sport, trad, mixed, etc. I see 'gym' climbers all the time at our local crags and it's frightening watching their sloppy and deadly practice. I'll always approach someone making a mistake (i.e. a light woman belaying a heavier man with no ground anchor) and ask if I can make a suggestion or comment on their setup. Some don't want to hear it and tell me to blow. Most listen and thank me for giving a hoot. Most WANT to be told and helped.
Steve Barnard <stevebarnard@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 20:36:31 (MST)

THE QUESTION SHOULD READ... "SHOULD GYM OWNERS THEMSELVES BE EXPERIENCED IN THE REAL ROCK WORLD AND THEN, BE OBLIGATED TO INFORM THEIR CUSTOMERS OF THE RISK FACTORS AND RESPONSIBILITIES THAT COME WITH LEAVING THE SECURE ENVIRONMENT OF THE GYM AND VENTURING INTO THE REAL ROCK WORLD?" I AM WILLING TO BET THAT IF AN HONEST SURVEY WAS CONDUCTED ACROSS THIS GRAND NATION OF OURS, ONE WOULD FIND AT LEAST 50-70% OF ROCK GYM OWNERS, NOT THE OPERATORS, HAVE LITTLE OR NO "REAL ROCK" EXPERIENCE. THEY ARE JUST VENTURING BUSINESS FOLKS WANTING TO MAKE A BUCK. BUT THEN THAT'S THE REALITY WE HAVE IN AMERICA, RIGHT!
RICK POEDTKE <rockrat@cnetech.com>
HANFORD, CALIF - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 09:46:30 (MST)

Sorry, the disclaimer is at http://www.nelsonrocks.org/warning.htm
Orvil Fields <ofields@fuse.net>
Cincinnati, OH - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 18:43:41 (MST)

Absolutely not. If the gym owner is offering outdoor classes as well, then obviously that should be a part of the training in the outdoor class. Anyone who doesn't know this is a high risk sport shouldn't be doing it. Check out the disclaimer on the web site nelsonrocks.org
Orvil Fields <ofields@fuse.net>
Cincinnati, OH - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 18:38:23 (MST)

And interfere with the process of natural selection?
Mark Wenzel <mwenzel@holtvalue.com>
Chicago, il - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 11:49:18 (MST)

if a car salesman sales a person a car and they drive it off the lot and get killed is it the salesmans fault, no
Ian Phillips <climbr82@aol.com>
torrance, ca - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 09:34:17 (MST)

I think that gym owners should inform people that there is a difference and that new things need to be learned, but I don't believe that it is their responsibility to teach people what to do in making this transformation. Simply mentioning that there is a difference takes about 5 seconds and makes their clients safer. Teaching is a different thing altogether. A gym owner is the owner of a commercial business designed to provide people with a safe place to climb indoors. Had he wanted the responsibility to teach about outdoor climbing, he would have become a guide.
Michael Golub <junkmail1@dartmouth.edu>
Hanover, NH - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 15:44:12 (MST)

No . The customers have a responsibility to educate themselves in any area they choose to enter.
marcus hilden <hildenmw@aol.com>
new market , al - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 14:03:13 (MST)

I don't believe they should be responsible to teach them the differences of indoor and outdoor climbing. Though they should let begining climbers know there is a differnce so that if a climber chooses to move outdoors they'll know to get more information about it before attcking a rock!
Sonia Dodd <sony_5@mailcity.com>
na, na U.S. - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 07:39:01 (MST)

I don't believe they should be responsible to teach them the differences of indoor and outdoor climbing. Though they should let beging climbers know there is a differnce so that if a climber chooses to move outdoors they'll know to get more information about it before attcking a rock!
Sonia Dodd <sony_5@mailcity.com>
Boone, Iowa U.S. - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 07:36:51 (MST)

No more than employees of climbing shops and editors of "How to" articles in the magazines. Eventually, people have to take responsibility for themselves and seek the advice of someone who teaches on real rock and not someone in a peripheral role in the industry. Maybe then, we could do away with the majority of lawyers defending people too stupid to take such self-reponsibility. No offense to the few good lawyers out there!
Jeff H. <none@none.com>
n/a, n/a n/a - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 09:02:57 (MST)

"No, I don't. The gym offers them what the gym has. I think a lot of that is up to the user. I think people should take responsibility for their own actions. If you want to learn to rock climb, you can do that in a gym, but you have to realize that it is not a mountain."
-Jim Detterline.

"Yes, I think they need to create an awareness that there is a lot more to climbing than what people learn in the gym. I don't think gym owners have to offer outdoor climbing, but making their clients aware of local guide services and places where they can learn to climb outdoors is helpful."
-Nancy Feagan.

"Do they have a responsibility? No. Is it in there best interest? Yes."
-Hans Florine.

"I think it is an ethical and moral issue more than anything else. I think there are people who own businesses who don't have a clue about climbing, but get into it because they have an opportunity to make money. It is a dangerous place to be, because they could easily pay some student low wages to teach other people the basics of rock climbing."
-Tim Kovacs.

"Yeah, I do. It's almost like a certification. When we teach a rock climbing class, we tell them up front, 'when you get done with this class, you should go out and climb with people who know more than you do, not by yourself.' I think that gyms probably need to do the same thing. Maybe they need to have people sign out on things like a lot of the companies do now."
-David Lengyel.

"I don't believe they have a legal responsibility. But I do think they need to tell them that there are risks in transferring those skills. A gym owner would clearly know they [the clients] are uneducated and they should tell their clients this. It comes down to ethics."
-Peter Lewis.

"Oh, yeah. Definitely. I think that the gym owners have a responsibility to teach their customers about environmental ethics also. Both of those things, you can't just give somebody the tools and then turn them lose and let them kill themselves."
-Sally Moser.

"Definitely."
-Mike Papsiak.

"I definitely believe that communication is required. My feeling is that it may not necessarily be the rock gym's responsibility to educate people regarding climbing outdoors, but I do believe that it is their full responsibility to explain to people from their very first time, that it is a separate experience."
-Chris Raypole.

"No, they don't. I think that climbing is dangerous and folks have to look after themselves. The gym owner's responsibility is to make sure no one gets hurt in the gym. It would be noble of them to at least point out the differences, but to be responsible for another's actions in a dangerous game is not correct. To make people believe that they are actually rock climbing when the are really pumping plastic, I think that is unethical. Gym climbing is a completely different sport."
-Brad Shilling.

"I think they have a moral responsibility, more than a legal responsibility. When you're teaching them initially, you say to them: "You are not qualified to climb outside. You've just learned how to climb in an indoor gym. If you want to learn to rock climb, you need to take a rock climbing class."
-Jim Waugh.

"Nope, I think that the individual has the responsibility. I wouldn't want to put that level of care on the gym owners. I think that what they have to do is be very clear in their orientation and explain that this activity is totally different from the activity of climbing inside at the gym. But, I don't think that they have a responsibility to teach them the difference."
-Jed Williamson.