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Here are your responses ending with those of the 14 experts surveyed for this thesis.
Thank you for contributing. As a climber from Michigan, the land of (very) little rock, I had little choice but to start in a gym. I loved it, but was totally hooked when an experienced friend took me outdoors (Devil's Lake, WI) for the first time. Since that eye opening experience, I have been fortunate to have a steady stream of climbing partners with 5 to 25 years of climbing experience to learn from. My first trip to Smith Rock upon moving to the Pacific NW was an eyepener: I had the worst footwork imaginable--I still find that after a rainy winter in the gym, my footwork has taken a significant turn for the worse. But here in the rain we have little choice unless we can take a 4 month road trip every year! I have been an instructor in two different gyms, and agree with many of the comments posted here. I confront those in the gym on a regular basis who insist that they know how to belay despite constantly leaving the brake end of the rope unattended "I've always done it his way", well I guess they've just been lucky or always used a GriGri (a useful tool, yet the ultimate teacher of bad habits--sorta like the gym). Many gym climbers ARE cocky in the sense that the think they know what they're doing: ignorance is NOT bliss, it can kill. Everyone starts out as a "gumby", those with common sense hopefully avoid serious injury! I always stress to the new climbers I teach that what we teach in the gym is for the gym and if they ever decide to venture outdoors to have a experienced guide take them or take a class first. Apprenticeship is how I learned and will be learning for the years to come. Also, we try avoid the comparison between our ratings and the outdoor systems by using our own open ended bouldering rating system and eliminating the "5." and using + or - instead of a, b, c or, d on the roped climbs. Our members sometimes complain that our ratings are stiff, but it is intentional, for obvious reasons. All in all, the gym is a great training tool, and a way to introduce those who might not otherwise get a chance to try this great sport we love/live. Without a friend dragging me to the gym, I may have never moved to the West, and may have missed out on many of the relationships I cherish today! Ben M. <moonclimbr@hotmail.com> Portland, OR - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 20:24:21 (MST) Much of what has been said i agree with. Sport/gym climbers are very strong but lack experience. In a resent trip to NRG a sport climber remarked thatclipping a bolt was no different than clipping a wire nut(he knew nothing about placing either piece!) Later that afternoon i was leading a 5,7 corner crack off width, i was stuggling...I knew he was thinking" what is wrong with this wimp" as i thrashed up the offwith. I gained the anchors and began to belay. Not only did he gain new respect for my lead but he proceeded to pull on two of my runners effectively by-passing the difficult section. I also noticed that sport climbers refer to climbs based on grades not names! They do not seem interested inthe climb,the rock or the view...only the number. i even had to request that he did not give me a "dynamic" belay! He thought i was crazy! i proceeded to explain that if he went and "ran down hill" prematuradly that he would pull me from the climb...in effect causing much pain not saving me from pain...he looked at me stupidly! All the sport climbers that tried that line that day gained new respect for us "Trad Weenies" One even went so far to say that the climb sucked(only cause she could not do it i am sure) these were 5.10 sport climbers i tell you My $.02 Ed "a trad climber from the beginning" Aleo Jr See you all on the steep EdAleo Jr <goatbrothr@aol.com> New Paltz , NY - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 15:49:11 (MST) I Learned to climb outdoors, and never had as much fun in the gyms. I admire the technology, but I myself don't find it as stimulating or challenging. My sister's friend in Maryland has only climbed in gyms. She wanted to go climbing with me. When I told her she was welcome to come, but I usually hire a guide, she said She didn't need one, she already knew how to climb. THAT scared me!!! Dave Brown <illyb@erols.com> New York, NY - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 14:57:23 (MST) I think that people need to realize what the to diffrent affairs are. When you climb in a gym it's fun and a good workout. Climbing out side is a whole other story. Most people who climb on real rock climb for environment. Anyone who is going to climb outdoors with out proper protection is just plain not using their brain! I mean it's like driving a car with out a seatbelt or riding a bike without a helmit. or having sex without a condom. I think some people let their fast pace lives slip into the safety of their own lives. You do need to read the Divers manual and pass the test before you get your drivers license don't you. Maybe that is what Rock climbing needs. I hope not. Wake Up! and smell your life in your hands!! Alleyne <Yelo4astar@aol.com> Vallejo, CA - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 13:10:44 (MST) Briefly, lack of safety awareness, inability to read routes, too casual in approach generally. They have climbing skills but no rope, safety OR communication skills - it is quite trying to have someone climbing next to you who appears to be trying to kill themself - and you cannot save people from themselves - though my friends and I do try. Brent Paul <bap@ecn.com.au> Brisbane, Queensland - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 20:44:54 (MST) in my opinion, people who learn to climb on indoor walls and then venture out into the real world are not only putting there self at risk but those who climb with them. they take with them a false sense of security that they have developed in the gym and when they get on the rock, lack the skills that can only come from the rock. real rock climbing is inherently dangerous and must be approached with not only a great deal of respect it must be approached in harmony with the rock. Jim letourneau <jletourneau@mindspring.com> va. beach, virginia u.s.a. - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 19:13:42 (MST) People will lack judgement, fail to test holds, be clueless about objective hazards, overconfident about subjective ones and fail to heed the rhythms around them. Marty LaBenz <labenz@sedona.net> Sedona, AZ - Thursday, March 30, 2000 at 20:56:08 (MST) With more people learning to climb on artificial surfaces before moving outside to practice the activity on natural rock, freeclimbing standards have risen, the number of people in the backcountry has increased, and the per capita instance of injury-causing accidents while climbing outdoors has decreased - at least that's according to research I conducted last year while writing a magazine article concerned with a similar question. David Dornian <ddornian@agt.net> Calgary, Alberta Canada - Wednesday, March 29, 2000 at 12:54:50 (MST) My sister and I both climb. I've always been an outdoor climber, venturing indoors only on the odd occassion when wind and rain have scared us off our local crag. My sister however is a gym junkie. She's only climbed outdoors a handful of times, and it shows. She climbs the higher grades at the gym, but struggles to mix it with me and my climbing buddies outdoors. She has problems solving climbs and is prone to injury. She has injured tendons in he fingers on natural rock and a shoulder aswell. I believe this is due to the variety of handholds found outside; no two are the same!!! and therefore we (outdoor climbers) are able to experience a variety of positions and just use our hands and arms differently to those who climb on plastic. My sister has no idea also about rigging and protection. All the stories that come out of the gym are so competative, a sentiment which is reflected when those guys come outdoor, just a bit too much ego happening. She has started recently to second with a mate, but doesn't tie knots or place pro. And although I've tried to teach her, she can't even rig a top-rope... Anyway, we are slowly converting her and will get her to be a hard core outdoor chick... maybe Tim <timothyrob@hotmail.com> Brisbane, Queensland - Tuesday, March 28, 2000 at 18:50:22 (MST) As with all small children, dangerous animals and psychopathic criminals, gym climbers should be kept in a cage or under adult supervision!! Actually, I do shudder sometimes at the thought of gymbos venturing outdoors - but only because I remember how dangerous and foolish I was when I made the same transition. Luckily I had the good fortune to be taken under the wing of a very experienced mentor (from whom I still learn, to this day) before I could kill myself (although I came pretty close a couple times). I would ADAMANTLY repeat the advice of many others posting here: find a skilled teacher, even if you have to pay him/her, forget your affection for ratings, get ready to get spanked but know that you are in for some very rewarding schooling. Those who venture recklessly outside the gym - and many shall - will propogate through inevitable accidents the damaging and unfair image of our pastime which the media loves to embrace. Please, kids, be careful! Matt Robertson <xxxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com> Denver, CO - Sunday, March 26, 2000 at 20:12:20 (MST) Don't get me wrong, I like to gym climb, but nothing beats the real thing. Part of climbing is figuring out what holds works for you. The same route can be done differently by each person who climbs it. On a gym wall the holds are starring you in the face. It takes away from the mental aspects of climbing. On a gym wall you simply go up. On a real wall you go up with the knowledge that you will have to work this problem out as you go. Aaah, nothing beats the feel of real rock grit on your fingers, flappers and all. Phaedra Morgan <Ab111c@aol.com> Tulsa, OK - Saturday, March 25, 2000 at 10:29:35 (MST) The trend of more people learning to climb indoors will impact most on the safty of outdoor climbing. If you don't have to rig anchors or place pro in the gym it's not going to come easily outside.But gyms do have their place. To me a gym is about convenience. Spending 2 hours climbing, not spending 2 hours getting to a climb. All forms of climbing are benefitting from the new wave of popularaty that started on the indoor wall. gaz <kearns.clan@clear.net.nz> Christchurch, Canterbury New Zealand - Saturday, March 25, 2000 at 06:23:57 (MST) #1 Gym climbers lack route vision (finding lines) when they first travel outside. #2 Gym climbers lack the etiquette that most outdoor climbers possess. #3 Gym climbers appear more competitive in nature. Outdoor climbers are generally there for the beauty of the rock and the challenge to themselves (physically and mentally). #4 Gym climbers like to bring battery powered stereos to the rock. I agree with earlier comments on the need for experienced climbers to teach inexperienced climbers safe practices. I was lucky to spend my first 2 years of climbing outdoors, but now I spend weekdays in the gym. I spend a lot of time teaching newbies. It's rewarding when you can instill outdoor values in a brand new gym climber so that they have the same attitude as those of us who started in the rough. I always emphasize that gyms were meant to train you for the real stuff. I often take a few newbies out as tag-alongs so they can catch the rock fever I've got. I think some instruction at gyms is given in such a "matter of fact/strictly business" manner that they forget to tell the client about the real thing. That's why I always prefer the little climber run gyms rather than the huge corporate money-maker gyms, no matter how crappy the walls are. After all, it's only for training anyway. Andy Vohs <andy@onlineclimbing.com> St. Louis, MO - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 13:03:56 (MST) Being a climber who started on plastic before moving onto the real stuff, I've noticed that it took awhile to climb on rock at the same level that I could climb on an artificial wall. On an indoor wall, the holds are obvious and there are only a limited number of ways they can be used. When making the transfer to real rocks, I felt overloaded. There were so many more features to look at and asses. I had a hard time deciding which holds would be best used and in what way. It was difficult deciphering the moves and linking them together. I've climbed for a year and a half now and find that I sometimes still cannot climb on rock at the same level that I can climb on an indoor wall. It's just a little harder to see the moves. As far as the transfer from indoor walls to sport climbs goes, I have been unfortunate. I had a more experienced climber to learn from initially, but he was a transfer student and returned home this past year. The effect has been that I've learned to set up a top rope anchor by myself. My first sport lead was done with knowledge I'd read from various sources, and I was alone with a belayer who'd been climbing for only several months. It's been liberating to learn for myself, but I feel disadvantaged. On top of that, I'm not looking forward to having to teach myself the intricacies of trad climbing. So, I whole heartedly agree that there should be a time where new climbers are essentially understudies to a more experienced, more knowledge climber. However, as the sport expands, there will be more and more people entering it without this vital element. All experienced climbers should be willing to sacrifice a few climbing trips to help a novices become safer and more knowledgeable. Think about when you were first starting and what a difference a little instruction makes. Mike Elliott <elliotm@rocky.edu> Billings, Mt - Wednesday, March 22, 2000 at 22:39:26 (MST) i've been reading the responses to this survey and i agree that gym climbing does increase strength and such which is great. the problem is that when you get out to a local crag and are on the sharp end leading even a 5.4 you will not try that dyno to a huge jug that you would on a 5.12 in the gym. fifteen feet above your last piece of schetchy pro, are you ready to deck out and maybe die. i thought i was as safe as they come until my spring break adventure a couple of weeks ago. i was at seneca (wv) on the first climb of the day. beautiful morning then we start up the first pitch, then the second and we hear a thunderstorm in the distance so we deside to pull a traverse over to some wrap rings and get down before this thunderbomber rolls in. well lets say we didn't make it. it starts pouring down rain and the lightening is flashing around us so we try and hurry down. BIG MISTAKE! we are on our last wrap down and i hook up or so i thought i did, i even double checked or so i thought i did. well as i weighted my rappell to ascend down the rope sprung from one end of my ATC. i've never been so happy to be hugging a tree in my life. just like that and i could have become a statistic. the point is to take your time no matter what, think before doing something that may cost you your life. climbing outside is and should be considered dangerous. i got lucky, others won't be so lucky. don't rush into things, learn before you head somewhere where you have not right being. hanlon <hanlon@prolog.net> selinsgrove, pa U.S. - Wednesday, March 22, 2000 at 14:28:17 (MST) I have been climbing safely for 13 years now and have seen more than a few people helicoptered out on a stretcher. I do not know if any of them were gym climbers or not. The point that seems to have been repeated in most of thes accidents is poor judgement. I have been fortunate to climb with several guides, and even if they can't climb as hard as I do, I ask for them to critique my pro placements. You can never know too much about the skills that protect your own life. I train for strength in a gym and have seen some pretty arrogant people go out on real rock and get humbled. Thank goodness they were only humbled and not hurt. My suggestion to "newbies": swallow your pride and either hire a guide, take a class, or suck up to someone who has been taught well and ask them to teach you. And PAY ATTENTION to the details when you are following, of how the pro is placed and the belay is set up ... ask questions. Learn well. And if you get in over your head, swallow your pride again and leave a draw or a nut or even a cam on the route and BACK DOWN. I would gladly spend $60 on a new Camalot rather than $600 for a trip to the ER and several months in rehab and missed climbing trips. And from a purely technical standpoint, you can put your feet anywhere you want, and that is a hard thing to learn in a gym, but not impossible. Don't be in doubt about your own safety, ignorance kills in climbing. Mike Lopez <MLTHEDOG@aol.com> San Diego, Ca - Monday, March 20, 2000 at 20:52:45 (MST) Simply put - people who learn in gyms seem to put themselves in danger when they climb real rock. most of thier attention is to athletic moves rather than the conditions of the rock and anchors. Mark J <addamsfamily@cybrzn.com> Athelelstane, Wisconsin - Monday, March 20, 2000 at 00:25:13 (MST) At the gym that I go to in Toronto and at the local major outfitter, what I have noticed is that the people that are in the know about real climbing tend to either ignore new enthusiastic climbers or put on a mr/ms superior attitude. This is not to say that all experience climbers are snobs, this is just what I have noticed. At the gym there two types of new climbers: those that want to make the transition to real rock and those that don't. Those that want to move to real rock fall into two categories: those that are cautious and realize the possible dangers of real climbing and those that are daring and foolhardy. If there aren't any experienced climbers at a given gym that are willing to openly share their knowledge, whether it be the gym offering a transition to real rock course or inviting newbies out for a weekend at the local crag, those people that are not by nature aware of the possible dangers are going to get hurt eventually and those that are will never make the transition to real rock. Like it or not the proliferation of gyms and their contribution to the rising popularity of real climbing is a fact of the sport. If the majority of new real climbers show up to the local crag with neither the experience nor supervision to act responsibly, accidents and environmental damage are going to skyrocket. Every incident not only tarnishes the reputation of climbing, but it can affect the accessibility of local crags. I think that I order to ensure that indoor climbers make a safe and low-impact transition to real rock, something in the "upper circle" of climbing has to give. I was introduced to real rock by someone who is a teacher by nature, as I am myself, but not many people have the patience or desire to deal with newbies. I like to share what little I know with people who know less but I have no major desire to spend an entire summer of valuable weekends top-roping on 5.6s with people who think slipknots are the best thing since sliced bread. And that is one of the major problems with the transition to real climbing, you can't learn it in a day or a weekend. It might take a dozens trips with someone experienced to know how to set-up a top rope anchor properly, let alone know how to sport climb or place protection. So I think it is up to the experience people within the sport to show some leadership and pass on their skills to not only encourage the sport, but to protect it as well. Alex Fennell <afennell@home.com> Toronto, Ontario Canada - Thursday, March 16, 2000 at 13:18:06 (MST) I have received several responses to comments I made earlier in his forum, mostly positive, but one writer wrote to tell me, basically: 1) Donnie, you're a jerk; 2) Hugh Herr did not begin as a gym rat; 3) Hugh Herr is nice and admirable man; 4) Boy, Donnie, are you ever a jerk! (Haha, just kidding! Actually he was very polite). Since my response to him allowed me to make my central points again, I decided to post it here so you could all hear my thoughts. A copy of that e-mail is appended. -Donnie ********************************************* Hi- Thanks for your note...it was very informative. I am sorry...I wrote that blurb at rocklist in a bit of aa hurry which led me to make a misspeak myself, leading to the factual error you point out. First, let me point out that I have great respect for what Mr. Herr has done...I cannot imagine the courage it took to face his injuries and the work it took to get back to hard climbing. I have nothing for admiration for him for his accomplishments. I do not know Mr. Herr (and never impplied that I did), my only connection to him is because my two friends saved his and his companions lives. Secondly, quibling over that detail steers you away from the point I was trying to make in that *like some modern gym rats*, Mr. Herr and his partner approached the mountain environment with arrogance, and overconfidence; they were ill-equipped, ignorant, inexperienced and showed complete contempt for an enviromnet that can be extremely lethal. Further, from interviews of him I have read (particularly the Outside in terview several years ago) Mr. Herr seems like a genuinely nice guy, and his strength of spirit is unbelieveable. Howver he has never, not once that I have seen , spoken publicly warninng if over-confidence. If the man had simply stuck a compass in his pocket, he and his partner at least would have descended the correct side of the mountiain, like been rescued days earlier and might even have saved his legs...certainly his injuries would have been far less grievous. My friends (Geoff May and Mark Boudreau) when they came upon Mr. Herr and his friends were on a multi-day snow-shoe traverse of The Presidential Range. Misha Kirk (who was out searching for the llost climbers) had seen them the previous day and warned them to keep their eyes peeled. When Geoff and Mark came upon the climbers, they had been huddled, near death, for days under a boulder. Geoff and Mark gave them their down parkas and pile pants. Realizing that the searchers were on the wrong side of the mountain, Mark put his snowshoes back on and ran over the summit and down the far side to lead them to the injured climbers while Geoff heated tea and soup and fed them. When Mark returned wih Mishha Kirk, a resuce chopper was called in, ut by the time it arrived it was too dark for the piolet to find a suitable place to land and he was going to turn back. Those boys might not have survived another night in the cold. Geoff located a site and shot off pocket flares to guide the piolot in. The boys were loaded, and Misha Kirk and my friends hiked out together. Never, not once, has Mr. Herr thanked my friends for saving their lives...not even a card. And he didn't return the borrowed clothing either. But his partner did. Since we are correcting factual errors here today, let me correct one more. The American Alpine Clubs account of this tradgedy in "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" ends with the line "Misha Kirk hiked out in the dark alone". This is not factual. Misha Kirk was so tired from days of searching that my friends offered to break trail for him and hiked out with them. Once again, sir, I thank you for taking the time to correspond with me. -Donnie Dr. Donld B. MacGowan <dr_sensible@ihateclowns.com> Na' alehu, Hawaii - Wednesday, March 15, 2000 at 11:18:59 (MST) WHO CARES!!! After playing on crags all over the world for 30 years now, I still maintain the philosophy that was bred into me... "HAVE FUN, PICK UP YOUR TRASH, BE SAFE AND BE RESPONSIBLE!" I think that if all of us can just remember that this whole "CLIMBING" thing, whether it is GYM, TRAD, SPORT, ICE, BIGWALLS or THE BIG ONES, is simply an avenue to do something we enjoy and love. If anyone coming out of a controlled environment such as the "GYM", thinks that they can jump on "THE BIG STONE" and free the NOSE in a day, then go ahead! But you better be ready to accept the responsibilities that comes with it. It is up to all of us to take care of eachother, the crags and the lifestyle that we all so dearly love! If we don't, the BOYS from WASHINTON D.C. will take it all away from us. Then, we will all be GYM CLIMBERS!! REMEMBER... AMERICAN TRIANGLES KILL!!!! RICK POEDTKE <rockrat@cnetech.com> HANFOD, CALIFORNIA - Tuesday, March 14, 2000 at 19:54:16 (MST) Well it would seen to me that the growing number of gym climbers out there heading out to climb on real rock will be increasing the number of sport climbers. Which will in turn increase the number of sport climbs. My advice is learn along side an expers traditional climber start looking for good nut placements instead of good clipping stances. And if you want to put up a new route go back to the gym. Enought with the sport climbs already. Another peace of advice remember you have to carry gear and place it so be wise on route selection untill you know your placements are solid (mental pro is useless so quit yer whining). Stay out of the mountains for your first couple of years. ryan crochiere <rcrochiere@prescott.edu> prescott, Arizona - Tuesday, March 14, 2000 at 14:09:08 (MST) In the gym there is no need to prepare fore the unexpected whereas in the real world almost everything is unexpected. The gym teaches the gymnastic part of climbing very well yet leaves all of the subtlerskills such as routefinding, self-rescue, and even etiquette at the crag sorely lacking. This combines to give us a number of climbers who's egos are artificially inflated by high numbers who have very little idea of how to handle themselves in a real vertical environment where actions have consequences. chris <eugene_iscariot@hotmail.com> salt lake city, ut - Tuesday, March 14, 2000 at 11:20:03 (MST) Being an indoor climber now outdoor climber i found safety the main difference regardless of it being trad or sport was the subtelties to outdoor climbing. Foot work is more complex, indoor you put your feet where the holds are. danny <awarrumbungle@hotmail.com> Brisbane, Qld - Monday, March 13, 2000 at 21:24:40 (MST) People who only climb at the gym can't pick a line, and don't know how to cope with the many variables of outdoor climbing. Once they take a few minor falls, they will learn! Karina <toesonthenose@ca.freei.net> Loma Linda, CA - Saturday, March 11, 2000 at 19:28:29 (MST) I have been involved with climbing for over 20 years. I feel that the gym and the rock, have thier individual advantages. The avalibility of "good", safe,equipment and the interest of Gym climbers has helped the sport to grow. The two are completely seperate animals. Gym climbing is more of a "Yuppy" trend. It is, however, very good training for fitness, grip, learning types of holds, etc. It in no way prepares you for unsupervised outdoor climbing. This needs to be stressed by gym instructors. I think that a good comparison is learning to snorkel in a pool, buying the gear and going on a solo cave dive. Bad Idea. Lets all be safe. It's great for our sport to grow and be "cool", but we must be careful not to become misguided in owr abilities. Rick Warren <rickywarren@yahoo.com> Atlanta, GA - Wednesday, March 08, 2000 at 19:32:59 (MST) I have been climbing ten years now from sport, trad, and big walls (Two El Cap accents). I learned how to climb from others how were more knowledgable and feel an apprenticeship works best. The gym atmosphere lulls you into security. Gym climbers appear to believe that "there's a bolt below me, so falling is no problem." They tend to be unaware of the complex nature of climbing outside and the dangers involved: will the gear hold, will the rock hold, will I hit anything on the way down, can I get myself off this rock if my partner is knocked out by a rock? Even though I am not an old school climber of the Golden Era, I tend to believe in the mantra "The leader must never fall." Neil Curtis <ncurtis101@aol.com> Harrisonburg, Virginia - Wednesday, March 08, 2000 at 19:27:55 (MST) Ratings in the gym are usually the result of one or two climbers opinions and as such are generally rather meaningless when applied outdoors. As a three year climbing fanatic I consider no indoor climb to be anything other than training. Outdoor climbing requires decision making on so many levels that not seeking the help of an experienced outdoor climber is at best foolish. Gym climbers I have seen outdoors display a sometimes shocking lack of basic skills required for safe climbing at the crags. All of us need to watch out for new climbers who are moving from the gym to the crags. I generally try to offer help where it is well received and critcism when it is necesary. No climber I have ever met wants to see someone injured or worse. The power of climbing resides in the memories burned into our minds by great climbs, friends, and times at the crags. Train, get strong, make friends, learn technique at the gym. Never mistake any of that for the knowledge needed to be safe at any crag. So, climb safe live long and collect those memories. Jeff Howard <jeffandcher@yahoo.com> Hales Corners, WI - Wednesday, March 08, 2000 at 18:04:23 (MST) Although I have only been climbing for about four years, I have jammed more climbing trips in then most "weekend warriors" will in 10 years. I will be honest with you and say that gyms are probably the ultimate way to get strong fast if you aren't fortunate enough to live near a great bouldering area. However, in my countless excursions to real rock, I have seen gym climbers doing stupid things. I personally believe that it is vital that a climber be better with a rope and trad gear than it is to be able to crank hard. I can go try basically any sane route(trad, sport, or even toprope) and know that if I fall off, then I will be perfectly safe, but there have been quite a few times where I have seen seen people coming straight out of the gym with no idea how to place pro or build an anchor and trying to lead something at their indoor max. I personally find it scary that gym climbers are trying to bypass the "apprenticeship" system that many of us have done. Find a person who knows what they are doing and don't strike out onto your own until you know your stuff forwards and backwards! Cam Snow <casnow@prodigy.net> Raleigh, NC - Wednesday, March 08, 2000 at 14:34:37 (MST) I've been climbing for nearly ten years and I've seen a lot of hairy things in that time. However, some of the scariest incidents that I have ever witnessed have come from those that learned to climb indoors but were too proud to ask for help when making the transition to outdoor climbing. This is the crux of the problem. It is my belief that when making the transition, one should seek out an experienced outdoor climber to show them the ropes. Jason D. Martin <j_dougie@yahoo.com> Las Vegas, NV - Wednesday, March 08, 2000 at 11:50:48 (MST) I was one who learned in the gym and then progressed to outdoors. I agree with many people who repsonded to this survey. For example I climbed only three months last winter January thru March. I quickly went from a 5.9 climber to a 5.11b sport climber in that short span of time. However once I got to Colorado to climb last summer I realized few things that were vital to a great outdoor experience. Indoor climbing definently relaxes your mind as far as safety goes. You must constantly keep in mind that this is not a 20 foot wall with padded floor. You cant just chat with the person next to you when your partner is led out 12 feet on a sport route. Dont be lax outdoors or anywhere for that matter. The indoor climbing made me a better climber as far as movement and technique goes. However it took a few climbs to really apply that to a outdoor climb. And lastly strength from indoors was definently an asset. I found myself finishing off moves that my buddies couldnt just because I was a little stronger from gym climbing. Lets face it though gym climbing is great for training and learning and preparing for the outdooors. But on the real rock is where its at. I would rather let the real earthen walls be my teacher anyday. Quinn Pack <packingit@hotmail.com> Baltimore, Maryland U.S.A. - Wednesday, March 08, 2000 at 07:32:15 (MST) I have been climbing for not quite two years, so the steep part of the learning curve is still pretty fresh in my mind. I think the real issue is not climbing experience or ability, it's gear experience and ability. I climb 5.11 on top-rope, but lead trad at the 5.9 level. The difference being that I am still working on the skills necessary to efficiently place effective pro. I have invested a lot of time in studying and practicing gear placement, anchor building, belay escapes, emergency ascending etc. I think people who climb in gyms are not even aware of the skills necessary for climbing outdoors and therefore are not in a position to make sound decisions. I see evidence of this regularly in the form of single tether top-rope anchors connected with half hitches atop difficult routes. Robert McBride <rgmsbrid@unity.ncsu.edu> Raleigh, North Carolina - Wednesday, March 08, 2000 at 07:23:35 (MST) I feel that indoor gyms, whether you pay for the experience or you design your own garage-based gym, it should be for training. There is no way to even remotely compare indoor to outdoor. I have seen some bad falls, bad calls, and I don't wish to see anymore. How often can you go outside and find color-coordinate routes? Indoors, the training is fantastic, and it keeps you pumped and wired...but it does not teach you how to map out that route, how to effectively place gear - whether you are going trad or sport. I learned outside first, train indoors, and it's almost comical when you see people who have never been outdoors who discover...hey..where are the colored routes? It don't happen friends. Train indoors to your heart's content...get ripped indoors...stay in shape all year long indoors...but take it slow and progress through the ranks outdoors and never assume anything..remember...rock is hard and cold and if you make a mistake, she is relentless. Safety first. Lou <lou_dale@bellsouth.net> Greenville, Georgia - Wednesday, March 08, 2000 at 07:02:12 (MST) Climbers who learn in a gym learn strength, stamina, and some crazy gymnastic moves. But, when out on rock they often overestimate their experience, and don't bring the respect to the experience. Preparing for climbing is more than just learning the moves and a few knots. Skill in routefinding, creativity in placements and backcountry skills are as important as the individual moves. Use a gym to train, use your head to climb. And a note to the Dr. from Hawaii, Sure Hugh Herr made a mistake, but it was almost 30 years ago, and we've all grown since then... let it go man! rob <iceclimb@mindspring.com> State College, PA - Wednesday, March 08, 2000 at 06:34:50 (MST) learning on artificial surfaces is all very well to help build strength, stamina and skill but it does not allow peopl to learn the essential spirit behind climbing; we are getting more and more 'cellar dwellers' coming to our crags without the respect for the rock. In the gym if you cant do a route you just drop off and land on the mats, on rock that can't happen, also, the incidence of the unacceptable practice of chipping climbs simply because they are not good enough to get to the top has inceased dramatically with the increase of the gym climber. The transition to rock is not an easy one and whilst not everyone can afford to spend every weekend of their lives at the crag and so gym training is essential the transition must be mental before it is physical. And as for leading, I personally have had to rescue three seperate climbers in one day because they can climb E2 in the gym but then they come to the rock and try to lead E2 and they don't even know how to place the gear. I'm all for gym training as long of the spirit of the sport is taught also; I'm not an old fuddy-duddy trad climber (no offence guys - don't get me wrong, you guys are great at what you do) but a 19year old boulderer who can also lead E7 7c trad. please, keep training, stay in the cellar all week but hit the rock with responsibility at the weekend (that way we get the whole week on the crag and can take the gym at the weekend!!!) Jonathan Matthews <jonathan.g.matthews@ic.ac.uk> London, London United Kingdom - Wednesday, March 08, 2000 at 03:54:28 (MST) As a gym instructor for the last year, I have seen all types of climbers come in to show their stuff on artificial surfaces. In defense of gym climbing, I feel compelled to note that while many of us admire and hope to emulate the skills required for on-sighting a 5.14d, very few of us will ever have the Sharma-like skills to accomplish such a feat in our lifetimes. Or the time to practice for that matter. For those 99% of other "recreational" climbers, the gym is a perfect opportunity to learn basic and advanced techniques in a safer environment, with paid instructors. This means that increasingly more climbers will be entering the outside world of climbing with more confidence, more muscle than can be built through weekend climbing trips, and a better sense of safety. I think it will also lead to a lot of new bouldering challenges as well, since most up routes in climbing gyms frankly suck. Just my two cents. Lee Gale <lgale@ucla.edu> Los Angeles, CA - Tuesday, March 07, 2000 at 23:38:15 (MST) I think People learning on artificial sufaces will show them a bigger rush while cilmbing natural rock. I recently took a beginer who has only climbed indoors on an outdoor climbing aventure and he loved it, he now wants to go back every week. So I think people learning on Artificial surface is good only if you get a chance to climb outdoors, so you can experience the rush you can only get with the fresh air. Scott Reavesq <Twistensid@aol.com> Ovwerland Park, Kansas - Tuesday, March 07, 2000 at 23:29:27 (MST) Learning the basics of climbing on a wall at BoyScout camp, I found myself being one of the better climbers there. I was humbled to find out how little I knew once I hit a real rock! The wall and the training thereon ensured my safety; I'm old enough to feel mortal and hate pain. But safety is irrelevant if one can't find a foothold! I say a good mix of training in the gym along with exposure to reasonably challenging but climbable rock, would be the best route for beginning climbers. Ludicrous <ornrier@worldnet.att.net> Lawrenceville, GA - Tuesday, March 07, 2000 at 23:23:05 (MST) My comments come from over twenty-five years of climbing on four continents, as a geezer who an still leads 5.12a on *real rock* as opposed to plastic...but I also adore indoor climbing--it's safe and it's fun and it's really great training. Training, OK? Not the real thing. I made-up this list of pros and cons about what happens in the first year of gym-rats venturing outside onto real rock after almost 2 minutes of concentrated thought (which, as a Phd, repsesents a 100% increase in the time I spent on my dissertation, OK?); but it is drawn from years of experience in the mountains, especially doing volunteer search and resuce in seven Rocky Mountain states and scraping the remains of cratered climbers onto stretchers and into body bags. First--we all started as ingnorant boobs when we first ventured onto rocks...but those of us who began by climbing in the real world either sought instruction via a class or experienced mentor, or died (as did my brother and my wife). Gym rats come to the outdoors too over confident and unwilling to take advice/instruction. I cite as an example Hugh Herr, who is renowned for establishing 5.13 routes all over New England on his artificial legs. Why does he have artificial legs? Because he was so stupid as to wear nothing but goretex over poly while ice climbing on Mt. Washington...abandoned his pack with food, spare clothes, map and compass at the top of the technical portion of the climb and ascended into the teeth of a blizzard 4 miles towards the summit, then became lost and spent several days almost dying under a boulder until Mark Boudreau and Geof May (who was best man at my most recent wedding) finally found him and called in a chopper for rescue. Yes, he had a partner, but the poor wretch has never climbed again. These were gym rats, playing for keeps in the big arena before they understood what it meant. So here is my list of pros and cons from numerous years of observation and having to look parents of dead and dying young people in the eye and say..."You should have made them take a *real*, certified climbing course", because, let's face it...in the big mountains, it's not always easy and it's not always the womb-like safety of the gym-- Cons: Over confident, sloppy belays and anchors (especially on multipitch routes)-- Fueling of overpopulation of sort routes-- Rating system has become meaningless as even a weak sister can achieve 5.12 in a gym...real rock is very different-- General lack of understanding of the mountain environment including issues of rockfall, avalanche, weather and litter-- Pros-- Are physically well-trained, kinesthetically refined-- Generally young (i.e., have time to learn before they burn)-- They shun frozen waterfalls and big alpine routes so we geezers still have somewhere to shine-- They are gonna be whuppin our butts--and the rating system in the very near future, isn't that exciting? Conclusions: Indoor training is great (I even have a home wall), and we old farts need to take the gym-rats out and help them get acquainted with the real world...besides, you'll learn amazing things from some 14 year old kid who can onsight 5.12 c! Let's get together, and teach eachother, ok? And stop the bickering...it's all about fighting gravity. Dr. Donald B. MacGowan <dr_sensible@ihateclowns.com> Na'alehu, Hawaii - Tuesday, March 07, 2000 at 22:59:54 (MST) The similarities between gym climbing and sport climbing I think will just fuel continued growth in the popularity of sport climbing. In areas where there is a choice, the progression seems to be gym -> sport -> trad. There are dangers in this as there will be people who don't realize how much they don't know about climbing outdoors safely. Jay Cloidt <JayCloidt@yahoo.com> Yonkers, NY - Tuesday, March 07, 2000 at 15:41:38 (MST) I learned the basics outdoors. This was 7 years ago, and I can still remember the focus that was born from fear. I knew that each lesson I was taught, was life or death and that respect kept me triple checking water knots and re-equalizing anchors ad nasuea. Returning to the sport after taking many years off, I joined a gym to start over. I talked a few friends into climbing and I've watched their early learning phase with attention. Where they lack the greatest is in footwork. the lessons you learn on slabs are invaluable. Finding both (or even one) foot-hold(s) before taking a step is rare for these beginners. I almost worry that gyms de-value the rating system (excluding bouldering) by leading these beginners to think that they can handle a 5.8 outdoors. A 5.8 crack can brutalize a beginner (hell even a non-beginner). On the flip side, I see them making strides in strength and courage that would take much longer to develop outdoors. Waiting for the weather, friends bailing, etc can making learning via weekend climbing trips drawn out. Jason Liebgott <jliebgott@hotmail.com> alameda, ca - Tuesday, March 07, 2000 at 00:49:15 (MST) What I've noticed in a big way is that the local sport crags are getting much more crowded. I often feel that there are a lot of accidents waiting to happen. Mostly due to lackadaisical, unsafe belaying. Very scary. I don't want to be there when the worst happens to someone whose partner doesn't know what to do. So I tend to stay away during peak use periods. Scott Carlisle <smcarlisle@hotmail.com> Palmdale, CA - Sunday, March 05, 2000 at 13:13:02 (MST) I'm just beginning my second year of climbing and recently I led my first route on trad, it was one of the best expierences of my life. You can not acquire that kind of feeling in a gym. I have the oppertunity to work out in a local gym but choose not to. To me there is nothing better than getting out with my friends, enjoying nature and taking advantage of all of the great oppertunities God set aside for us. Frank Hanlon <hanlon@prolog.net> Selinsgrove, Pa - Saturday, March 04, 2000 at 18:05:53 (MST) I've been climbing for quite awhile now and learned on rock. Think back for those in my position. Is somebody really worse off because they started in the gym?? Not necessarily. They are if they take safety for granted and/or don't have a safety-oriented teacher. If it's clear to a gym climber that the dangers outside can be high, then they are probably better off than somebody just starting on rock. They have already established some technique and have already become at least somewhat familiar with the "system". Crack climbing, aid, ice, multi-pitch, etc obviously offer new challenges for the gym climber, but we all have to start somewhere. What I would like to see is gyms emphasizing safety in the outside world and simulating "real" situations for those interested in heading to the crag. You can learn a lot inside a gym. Rob <rob_peterka@hotmail.com> Dolores, CO - Friday, March 03, 2000 at 17:32:38 (MST) I am new to climbing. I have been reading and learning from anything and anyone I can. One of the things that I have learned that sticks out in my mind is the people that have been climbing for a long time on rock or in a gym seem threatened by new people. Not all but quite a few who post in forums tend to think that all new climbers, especially gym climbers, have no common sense at all. Being a new climber I can tell you right off that I know only one type of climbing. That would be gym climbing. I can not boulder; I cannot do crack climbing, or half a dozen other climbing things that I am probably not even aware of. Because of this I would not attempt to do anything beyond my ability. If I learned how to fly an airplane, I would be pretty certain I would not be able to fly a helicopter just because I know how to fly an airplane. They are two totally different aircraft even though they both fly in the air. Why is it that new climbers are thought to be idiots? Maybe it is just that we "new" climbers are afraid to approach the "pro's" because we have been conditioned to think that we are just simply not worthy. If you want the sport to grow then be open to the new climbers. If you don't want the sport to grow then stop advertising and maybe it will go away. Jim Leighty <jim.leighty@getronics.com> Spokane, WA - Friday, March 03, 2000 at 14:06:19 (MST) First of all, excuse my english. And here's what I've to add: In my opinion the climbers in nature aren't as crazy as the ones, who practice indoors. The ones indoor don't have the imagine of how dangerous it can be. They don't think of the other surrounding and so they behave like being in a climbing center. I myself have started climbing outside and only in winther I practise indoor. I think this is the right combination. greetings and how already mentioned. din't mantion my english! Patrizia Kamp <doghead83@hotmail.com> Wartberg, STMK - Thursday, March 02, 2000 at 03:25:30 (MST) "Generally they have more strength and a better idea of movement, but they don't have an awareness of rock-fall or other hazards such as weather, anchors, and belaying." -Nancy Feagan "We have determined that there are two sets of distinct skills related to climbing. One is the physical technique, i.e., how you use your hands and feet. The other set of skills is the safety systems and how we use the ropes, anchors, hardware, and helmets to minimize the risk. In artificial climbing, all you can really work on is the physical aspect of climbing, improving technique and climbing harder grades. You can't learn how to run the rope out, make decisions about route-finding, or how to place nuts." -Randy Grandstaff. "Take a student who starts on real rock. They're paying more attention to all of the equipment, safety, and directions, because they're excited; that's why they're there. Then you take a kid who learned in a gym. He says, "I can put on a harness," "I can tie in," and that's what we see out on the rock. They come from the gym and they think that they can just do it all. They don't pay attention to the directions and so I think it creates a problem. Coming from the gym, it's easy for them to get pretty good and then have a false sense of confidence when they get out on the rock." -David Lengyel. "My guess is that they [climbers who learn on artificial walls] have a fundamentally a weak knowledge base. They don't have an understanding of the systems, and certainly not an understanding of traditional systems. Setting up belays, rope management and gear placement: they have never been exposed to any of it. They have an extremely limited understanding of equipment and systems. Indoors, the systems and environment are very controlled, but outside it is anything but." -Peter Lewis. "I believe that people who get started in gyms and come out to the natural environment, (I'm assuming that they're starting out on sport climbs), are a lot more aggressive. I know when I started climbing, there was a really strong tendency to be conservative. You just weren't lobbing off of everything. It was the rare individual indeed who was frequently falling off things in a carefree manner. I think there needs to be much more of a transition for people who are starting in a gym. Their use of the equipment, as a tool, rather than a backup system, is almost automatic." -Chris Raypole. "Gym climber's ability to face climb is probably better. Their ability to crack climb is non-existent. They have no problem clipping bolts, but skills for dealing with protection are basically non-existent. It presents an interesting problem for those folks. They have this ability to climb at a high level and yet if they get on a climb that is not in that genre of climb, then they are in trouble. Say they can climb a 5.11 bolt protected face climb and be solid on it and yet a 5.8 crack climb is absolutely deadly for them, because they do not have the crack climbing technique nor the ability to protect it." -Brad Shilling. "Oh, I would tend to think that they don't see a sequence as well when they look at a climb, they don't necessarily see everything. In the gym it's pretty obvious what you're going to need to grab, it's like a 'connect the dots' game. Also, figuring out what to do with your feet. I also tend to think that people who learn in the gym sometimes don't have in-depth belaying skills." -Jim Waugh. 
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